Will building your personal brand help you to sell more books and courses or find you more clients as a writer?
Personal branding is something that content creators should consider. I learned the hard way that building a brand isn't about spending hundreds of dollars on a fancy logo but is more about associating yourself with a specific topic or creating a name for yourself within a niche.
In this episode, I chat with Pamela Wilson, who you may know from Copyblogger and her own business, Big Brand System. Pamela gives some insight into what it means to build a personal brand today.
I was particularly interested in how personal branding can help you create digital products and services that others will want to buy.
In this episode we discuss:
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Pamela: In the case of a writer who’s trying to build a personal brand around their name and around their work, I think what you end up needing to do is to really share a lot about your voice and your interest. You have to share a little bit more about you with the people you’re trying to reach.
Introduction: Welcome to the Become a Writer Today Podcast with Bryan Collins. Here, you’ll find practical advice and interviews for all kinds of writers.
Bryan: How can you build your personal brand and will it help you sell more books, sell more of your courses, or find more clients as a writer?
Hi, there. My name is Bryan Collins, and welcome to the Become a Writer Today Podcast. I’ve been thinking a lot about personal branding lately because I’m writing a chapter for my new book which is going to explain how content creators can earn an income from their writing. Branding is certainly something that content creators should spend a little bit of time thinking about.
Now, years ago, when I started Become a Writer Today, I wasted hundreds of dollars on a fancy logo for the site even though the site wasn’t getting any traffic and it wasn’t earning any money because I thought this is what I needed to do to build a personal brand, but it turns out a personal brand is more about associating yourself with a specific topic or building a name for yourself within a particular niche and I ended up doing this through guest posting and writing guest articles for sites like Copyblogger.
Now, you may know this week’s interviewee from Copyblogger or also from her own business, Big Brand System. Her name is Pamela Wilson, and I wanted to catch up with Pamela to get her take on what it means to build a personal brand today. One of my key takeaways from this interview was that if you get your personal branding right, it can potentially help you sell more of your books and your courses and I’m specifically interested in how personal branding can help people create digital products and services that others will buy and get value from.
So I dove a little bit into the topic with Pamela and she explains how you can set up a pre-offer, how you can iterate that pre-offer over time, and how you can ultimately create something that offers more value for your customers or your students and helps you build a better, more satisfying business around your content. Suffice to say, Pamela did not recommend doing what I did which was to spend hundreds of dollars on a fancy logo before you have an audience or before you have any clients, or before you’ve built up a relationship with other people in your niche or in your area.
Now, all of that said, if you’re listening to this and you’re saying, “Well, I do really need a logo,” then you can do one of two things: you can just simply pick some specific fonts and a simple color scheme for your site and just use that and stick with it until you have an audience or if you want to build a brand around, you know, a business or your content business, you can use a cheap service like Logo Maker to knock something up relatively quickly that looks good and then move on.
Because as a creative or as a content writer or as any type of writer, your time is always better spent putting your creative work first and that means writing 500 or 1,000 words every day first thing in the morning so that you can make progress with your book.
It also means recording your courses and thinking of offers that you can present to would-be students and then you can worry about personal branding later because it’s easy to iterate your personal brand whereas it’s a lot harder to write a book so do that first before you start worrying about your personal branding. But do take the time to consider the topics that you’re associated with and if you’re communicating the right message to readers and to your followers and that’s something Pamela explains in this week’s interview.
Now, if you find it helpful, please consider leaving a short review on iTunes or you can share the show on Overcast, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you’re listening. I’m also on Twitter so I’d love to hear from you. It’s @bryanjcollins and if you’ve got any questions about the show or feedback, then let me know. And you can also become a Patreon supporter for just a couple of dollars a month. I’ll give you discounts on my writing courses, software, and books.
Now, let’s go over to this week’s interview with Pamela Wilson and I started by asking her about her background with Copyblogger and how she set up Big Brand System, and then, towards the end of the interview, we get into creating pre-offers and iterating your digital products.
Pamela: The funny thing is you followed my work on Copyblogger but, for decades, I did not think I could write. I just didn’t think I was any kind of a writer at all. I have a design background and my original business was marketing and graphic design and when it came to the words, I always had to ask somebody else, an official copywriter, to write the words because I didn’t think I could write, but I discovered content marketing and, of course, simultaneously, discovered Copyblogger and started learning everything I could from them.
And I discovered that, in a weird way, my design training actually helped me when it came to content marketing so I kind of developed this process for getting content created and then discovered, like everyone else who’s done any kind of writing, the more you do, the better you get at it. So, I just started writing a lot of content. I ended up reaching out to Copyblogger to see if I could send in guest posts and, at this point, I’ve been told that I have more guest content on their site than anyone else.
Bryan: Yeah, you’re still collaborating with Copyblogger. I see you have a webinar at the time of recording this interview that’s coming up.
Pamela: Yes, yeah. They’ve turned over, they have a new team but I know that team as well so the person who is behind Copyblogger right now actually lives in the same city that I do so that’s convenient, not that we’re doing anything in person, it’s all virtual but, yeah, I’m still working with them and they have a great audience in there.
When I teach content marketing to my audience, part of what I talk about is guest posting and what I tell people is you always want to make sure that the audience you’re trying to get in front of has at least some people who will eventually be interested in working with you and, in my case, people in the Copyblogger audience are a great fit for everything else I do so I love talking to that audience and it’s huge, it’s a lot of people, so it’s a lot of fun to present to that group.
Bryan: Some of the work that you do involves teaching your readers and followers how to create offers and digital products.
Pamela: Yes. Not all products, some of them are services, but I’m helping people to come up with offers that they can offer online, basically, and I’m doing that because I always found that people struggled with that component of building an online business. They would get their website, they would start creating content, they would build some kind of a presence on social media, they would start a podcast, things like that, but then when it came to actually creating something that they could offer in exchange for money, whether it was a product or a service, people got really stuck.
There’s a lot to it, as you know, you know? There’s a lot to it. You have to come up with something people will want to buy, you have to figure out how you’re going to market it, what you’re going to charge for it, so I developed a program that helps people with that specific thing, with developing an offer that will generate income, like good income, for your business.
Bryan: So if I was listening to this show and I, you know, was a new writer and I was saying to myself, “You know, I really want to write for a particular site,” does guest posting still work for me? Will it still help me get in front of the right audience?
Pamela: I think it will and it’s funny, I have sort of a loosey-goosey definition of guest posting. I think that this — I call it guesting, first of all, you know, a lot of people do it, it’s like a verb, right? Guesting. And I think I’m guesting right now on your podcast.
To me, this is guest content, right? So I do think it works and I think, actually, there are more places that we can do it now than there ever were before. I think it works best if you’re able to develop a relationship with a specific site or two so that you become this sort of known voice on that platform and that’s what I’ve done on Copyblogger. I mean, it’s great because I pop up and people are like, “Oh, it’s Pamela Wilson again, we know her.”
When it’s like that, you’re building kind of this brand equity, in a way, by appearing in front of that audience frequently and I think if you do it like that, it can really work. If it’s a one-shot deal and you write one single guest post and you never show up again, I don’t think it’s quite as effective.
Bryan: Yeah, when I was guest posting years ago, I found it was a lot of work to pitch many different sites so, actually, I did write for Copyblogger, funnily enough, but it was only one post —
Bryan: — or maybe it was two, but, yeah, it was a lot of work to pitch many sites so I ended up focusing on a couple in the writing niche specifically. I found that worked quite well for me when I was guesting.
So, what I wanted to talk to you was about personal branding. I was on a content marketing team for the British software company, Sage, and I learned a lot about branding but it was branding from a corporate point of view and, you know, big companies have a lot of money whereas a writer who’s starting their site or a content creator who’s just getting ready to launch something probably doesn’t have those resources so how could they get started with personal branding?
Pamela: So I first want to ask you how you define personal branding because it’s one of those terms that has a lot of definition. So, tell me what you mean when you ask that question.
Bryan: Yeah, sure. So, feel free to correct me if I’ve misunderstood it but my idea of personal branding is you can build a brand around your name where you’re linked to a niche or an industry, like I guess I’ve built a personal brand around writing but you can also build a brand around a topic or a concept or an idea so, you know, some idea that you’ve come up with becomes popular in the industry and that’s something I’ve seen for SEO techniques like the Skyscraper Technique, which anybody who’s into SEO would know, or you could brand around a site name so Copyblogger is known for the Copyblogger name as much as it’s known for you and for Brian Clark who I think set it up.
Pamela: Right. Okay, so that’s good, we’re on the same wavelength. I just wanted to make sure because you never know. I call it a personal brand or a business brand and that’s just my term for it but a personal brand, like you said, is a brand that is built around a single person and that person’s skills and interests and, in the case of a writer, their writing voice, things like that.
A business brand is more like a company that has a name and you are promoting that name. So, in my case, I chose Big Brand System, I have a site that is not named for me, it’s named for the thing that I want to offer people which is you don’t have to be a big brand to have a big brand, right? So, I built it around a business name and I’m sort of the spokesperson for that business, right? In the case of a writer who’s trying to build a personal brand around their name and around their work, I think what you end up needing to do is to really share a lot about your voice and your interest. You have to share a little bit more about you with the people you’re trying to reach.
This can make people very nervous, you know? It’s like, “I don’t wanna share my whole life,” so what you end up needing to do is kind of curating and figuring out a handful of things that you just loop back to over and over that sort of support the overarching message that you want to send people. So, for example, let’s say you’re a writer and you specialize in — I spoke to someone yesterday, actually, who is a writer in the healthcare industry and she specializes in sleep and everything that sleep does for us as human beings.
So, for her, she might pull back and say, “I wanna become known as the sleep writer, the person who writes about sleep,” so she might pull back and say, “I can talk about, you know, maybe one of my themes is beds and every time I travel, I talk about the bed at this hotel or the bed there or sleeping on an airline,” or something like that and that’s just like one of her angles and so she talks about that on a blog that she writes or she talks about it on social media and things like that.
So, it’s a matter of figuring out sort of, okay, what are my themes going to be and how can I talk about those, both in my content marketing and also in my social media presence? If I’m a guest on a podcast, for example, how can I weave that theme in and talk about it? Does that make sense?
Bryan: It does, it does. So, how many themes should somebody come up with?
Pamela: I think four or five is probably, you know, as human beings, we can kind of hold four or five things in our brain at any given time so I think — if you think of them as themes and then what you’ll be doing is having variations on those themes going forward, you know, you get to be creative.
Like I said, if one of your themes is beds and how they impact the quality of your sleep, then you’re talking about beds from all these different angles, right? It’s a matter of looking at those themes and figuring out how you can branch out from them and be creative with them but — and you notice I haven’t said a single thing about your fonts or your colors.
Bryan: The logo, yeah.
Pamela: Right, because I think if you’re talking about personal branding for writers, it really is a lot about your themes and the voice that you use when you talk about them and less about your colors and your fonts. My thing about your visual brand is you need to be sort of minimalist about it. Pick a couple of fonts that represent how you want to show up and a couple of colors that represent how you want to show up, you know, and represent yourself online and then just be done with that and use them over and over and be very consistent.
Bryan: So don’t spend hundreds of dollars on a fancy logo.
Pamela: No. Find a font and type your name out in that font. That is all you have to do to start.
Bryan: Yeah. Actually, I think that’s what I did, I spent a couple of $100 on a fancy logo when I didn’t need to but I ended up changing it to the step that you’ve described.
Pamela: And it’s super common and that’s one of the reasons I recommend that people just not do that, you know? I think in particular, if you’re trying to show up as yourself, you could actually be doing a disservice to yourself if you create a logo because the logo is more associated with a business brand and if you want to show up and be you, it’s probably better just to type your name out and put your name in front of people.
Bryan: So when I have a couple of themes mapped out, is that when I start planning out my content for the next month or the next three months, start developing my content strategy?
Pamela: Yes. Okay, so we’re talking a little bit about two different things, I think, so when I’m talking about themes, I’m thinking about them more as marketing themes in general.
So this could be, if you have a social media presence, if you have an e-mail list and you’re e-mailing your list, you’re talking about those themes there. If you’re a guest, you’re talking about those themes there. When it comes to content on your site, you can talk about those themes, you can add probably a few more on your site because if it’s content marketing on your site, you can explore them more in depth.
You can add a couple more to the mix, I would say 10 or 12, maybe. I don’t know if you’ve read my books but one of the things that I recommend is to use categories as the representatives of these main themes that you talk about and not — don’t have more than 10 or 12 because, otherwise, they’re not that useful anymore.
Bryan: At what point does somebody decide that a category no longer represents them, perhaps they’ve become bored of it or they want to try something different?
Pamela: What I recommend actually is to work backwards and be cautious about adding a category until you know that you’re going to be talking about that theme consistently until you figured out that that’s something you want to talk about consistently.
So, you may start out with only three or four categories that you know for sure you want to talk about in your content, and then, over time, as your business grows and as you get to know your audience better and you understand better what you need to be talking about, then you may see, “Okay, there’s — I see another category developing here, I need to add this,” right? It does sometimes happen that a business pivots enough that a category isn’t valid anymore, you know? You’re just not talking about that topic anymore and then you just kind of retire it.
Bryan: Yeah, that’s a good point. When I started out, I originally talked about productivity for writers and then I moved on to different topics or different categories. I guess I had said all I had to say on the topic before I moved on to other things. So, when you are planning your content strategy for your site, how long do you recommend your clients plan their content strategy in advance?
Pamela: If you can do it once a quarter and map out a quarter, that’s fantastic. A lot of this depends on the frequency with which you’re posting but I really like to look at my quarter. I’m big about like tying your content marketing to revenue and so I usually recommend that people start with a promotions calendar and they figure out what do I want to promote and when are those promotions going to happen?
In the case of a writer, you might say, “I’m on a retainer with these clients but my retainer is ending and so I’m going to do a big promotion this week,” or something, a specific week of the month, and then you kind of plan backwards and figure out how you can create content that naturally leads people to start thinking about what you’re going to be promoting during that specific week. If you can do it a quarter at a time, that’s excellent. The reality is that usually you have more precise plans for a month —
Pamela: — and then as the plans go further out in time, you know, they’re a little looser.
Bryan: And the clients that you work with, do you recommend they map this out in a spreadsheet or some other way?
Pamela: Well, that’s interesting, I have a course called the Content Lab and one of the tools that I give people is this content planner so that they can do some of that thinking and it’s a spreadsheet. It’s basically a really tricked-out spreadsheet that has the theme you want to talk about, the title that you ended up with on the posts, the headline you ended up using, the link to the published post, the audience, the kind of audience member you’re writing it for, the category that you put it in, any calls to action that you added to the post, it’s just — it ends up being this beautiful like master index of all your content in one spreadsheet so I recommend something like that.
It helps a lot. It’s something I’ve been wishing — my site is on WordPress and it’s something I’ve been wishing my website had. It’s like I feel like you should give me a spreadsheet, you know, kind of present all my content in one place and they just don’t have it.
Bryan: Yeah. I have something similar in Airtable, which is just —
Bryan: — a fancy spreadsheet.
Pamela: Fancy spreadsheet, right? Yeah, I use Airtable as well. This is just a Google Doc because it’s accessible to a lot of people.
Bryan: Yeah, what I like about it is, before I did this, I was sometimes writing or publishing articles on the same topic without knowing it because when you’ve been doing something for a while —
Pamela: Yes, right.
Bryan: — you forget, so this helped me see, “Oh, I’ve already talked about this, perhaps I just need to update the old article rather than publishing something new.”
Bryan: You mentioned about tying your content to revenue. So, what are some of the ways somebody can do this?
Pamela: It’s interesting. You have an audience of writers, correct?
Pamela: And writers of what? Tell me…books?
Bryan: That would be a split between fiction and nonfiction.
Pamela: Okay, but books primarily, correct?
Pamela: Right, okay, so let’s answer — I’m going to answer the question so it makes sense for your audience. If you are publishing books, those books are being published at a specific time so what I would recommend is that you look at your calendar, figure out when you’re publishing and then work backwards with your content. Does that make sense?
Bryan: It does, it does. So would that be built around the launch date for a book?
Pamela: Yes. Yeah, and you want to have — you want to sort of — I call it the planning and seeding method so you’re planning out when you have a promotion coming up or when you have a book launch coming up and then you are basically seeding mentions of that book launch in all of your content leading up to your launch date. What you’re basically doing is raising awareness of the book ahead of its launch so that by the time it’s actually available, people are like, “Oh, my gosh, finally, I can get this thing that I’ve been thinking about for months.”
Bryan: So this will be publishing articles, potentially podcasts episodes?
Pamela: Talking about the behind-the-scene. People love behind the scenes —
Pamela: — so behind the scenes of how you researched the book, of how you came up with the characters if it’s fiction, of how you discovered the concepts you’re teaching if it’s, you know, kind of a self-help book, things like that. It’s just to get people sort of seeing your process and thinking about the topic in advance.
Bryan: So, after speaking to a lot of non-fiction authors, many of them have a business built around their non-fiction books. If somebody’s listening to this and they have a non-fiction book but they’re not quite sure how to build a business behind it, how would you advise them about creating a pre-offer?
Pamela: Well, the one thing I would not recommend they do is they — I’ve seen it happen with some of my author friends that they built a course with the exact same name as their book —
Pamela: — and people see the course and they see the book and the book is $15 —
Pamela: — and the course is $1,500 and people say, “Eh, I’ll buy the book.” So, that’s one thing I highly recommend that you avoid and if you’re going to build any kind of education around your non-fiction book or any kind of coaching or anything, that you give it a slightly different name and you make sure that you position it in people’s minds so that it’s clear that you’re offering a lot more value from this other offer, that it’s building on the concepts that are in your book and taking them to the next level. That’s a super common mistake.
And then, outside of that, I mean, I think books can be a really great authority builder. If you’re building an online offer around that same topic that you’ve covered in your book, they, you know, people, you know how it is, people just admire you for having written a book. I think it’s partly just that you got through such a big topic and you examined it so closely and wrote that much about it, people put you up on a pedestal like you’re an authority because you’ve done that work so — and as they should, I’m not minimizing it, they should, but it’s pretty reliable that it happens that way so it is a great way to position yourself as someone who really understands that topic because you’ve written a book about it.
Bryan: So, is it more work to write a book or to create a course or an offer?
Pamela: Oh, my goodness. It’s a different kind of work and, you know, it’s one — that’s one of those questions that the true answer is it depends, right? If you’ve never written a book before and this is your first book but you’ve done a lot of courses, then writing a book is going to take more effort. If you have written lots of books and this is just another in a long line and you’ve never created a course, then, obviously, creating a course is going to be more work.
I think, honestly, they’re similar amounts of work but they’re just very different types of work, right? When you’re creating any kind of online course, there’s a lot of tech that you have to work out. You’re teaching adults, typically, if you’ve written a book for adults, and you’re creating a course on the same topic you’re going to be teaching adults, there’s a lot you have to know about how adults learn and how you can teach them in a way that will work for them and, you know, creating lessons that are easy to consume, that actually deliver what they need but not more than what they need because all adults are busy, so there’s a lot of that kind of stuff that you have to work through and then figuring out how to market it, just like you have to figure out how to promote and market your book, you have to figure out how to promote and market your course and it’s a whole world. It’s a whole world of knowledge that you have to figure out.
Bryan: Do you find your clients have to iterate their courses or offers or services quite a lot?
Pamela: So, the way I teach it, actually, is I sort of bake iteration into the process so I teach this approach to it, I call it my Smart Start method, and it’s basically where you figure out what offer you want to create and you create a minimum viable version of it that you can test and you put that out and you get a few paying clients, you offer it at a lower price than what you plan to offer it for eventually, and then you test it with that group of people, you test your marketing for it, you test how they’re able to benefit from what you’re delivering to them, you see what’s missing and you’re able to sort of fill in the missing pieces and it’s sort of a low stakes way of testing out your offer and you go into it knowing, “I am going to iterate,” and in some cases, the iteration is, “You know what, this isn’t a good offer. I gotta figure out something else,” right?
And so the beauty of doing it that way is you haven’t invested thousands of dollars in paying someone to develop, you know, this learning platform where you’re going to put this course and you invest thousands of dollars in video production costs and all of this without actually testing if what you want to do is going to be helpful, right?
So I really bake iteration into the process and I think it’s so important to do that because, otherwise, you end up, you know, you sort of think you know what people want but you never — even all these years later, I’ve been doing this online education for adults for 11 years now and I still can’t guess. I still have to, you know, test it, see what people — I think it was Dwight Eisenhower who was an American president who said, “No battle plan survives contact with the enemy,” which means you can plan all you want but once you put it in front of people, it’s always going to have to change, right? And if you just go into it with a spirit of like, “You know, this is an experiment and we’re going to see what needs to change,” then you’re not thrown by the fact that you have to iterate, you kind of embrace it and you look forward to it. So, yes, absolutely iteration and I think it will go better for you if you just go into it with, “I’m gonna put this out there and see what I need to iterate,” you know?
Bryan: Yeah, yeah, makes sense. And if somebody is listening to this and they don’t have an audience, is that when they turn to content marketing to attract their audience, or do you find your clients are also using techniques like Facebook advertising?
Pamela: I recommend organic first —
Pamela: — because I think it’s a relatively low-stakes way to test your concepts and test your ideas and get feedback immediately on how people are responding to them. And, as a writer, it also gives you an opportunity to really develop those ideas and develop your voice and how you plan to talk about those ideas rather than just throwing money.
A lot of times, when you throw money in advertising, what you end up with is kind of low-quality leads and I would rather see fewer leads that are genuine leads, who are genuinely interested in what you’re doing, than a bunch of low quality leads that you’ve had to pay a lot of money for and who may not really feel a sense of engagement with you because it came in through an ad.
Bryan: So is the offer generally made to your audience via your e-mail list or is there some other way that you find is quite successful?
Pamela: Yeah, I love this line of questioning because you’re basically guessing everything that’s in my offer, my program, so it’s cool. The program starts with the foundation module and the big emphasis of that foundation module is to get your list growth going in the background —
Pamela: — so we really focus on creating a very valuable lead magnet which, if you create a really good lead magnet, you can use that same lead magnet for years. I mean, sometimes people become known for their lead magnets on their website. So, I recommend really putting some creativity and some effort into developing that and once you get that in place, then your e-mail list is just growing in the background while you turn your focus to developing your offer.
So, yes, absolutely. I think if you can grow an e-mail list of people who you’ve created a lead magnet that will specifically target people who are going to eventually be interested in what you plan to offer, right?
Pamela: So it’s not just any old lead magnet. The idea is not to just attract warm bodies, it’s to attract people who are specifically interested in your topic so when you go through the effort to create that kind of a lead magnet, it can be working for you in the background so that once you do have this minimum viable offer created that you can put in front of people, you’re putting it in front of people who are inherently interested in it because they signed up for that lead magnet that you put out there so, yes, I believe in launching to your e-mail list first and foremost.
Bryan: Make sense, make sense. So, let’s say I have an offer, it’s converting, it’s doing quite well, I’ve reached the promised land, what type of things should I stop doing that I perhaps was doing when I started my content business?
Pamela: Oh, my goodness, that’s such a good question. So your offer is converting and why do you have to stop things?
Bryan: Well, I guess you might reach the point — well, I reached for myself where, you know, I’m overwhelmed by all the different tasks that I have to do so how do I decide what to focus on versus not focus on? Like an example for me is I used to spend a lot of time guest posting but I eventually reached a point it was taking too much time to write the guest posts so I kind of reduced the amount of guest posts I was writing for other people’s sites and started focusing on my own site.
Pamela: Right. That makes sense. So I would say you always have to look, as the CEO of your business, you always have to look at, “Okay, I’m gonna stop guest posting but like am I still getting people on my e-mail list even if I don’t do that?”
So you need to make sure that if you peel things away, you’re peeling things away that you can legitimately let go and things will still function. One thing that can work really well once you have an offer that’s converting is to create some kind of evergreen process so that people can find your offer and become customers without you having to deliver, for example, a live presentation or, if you offer a service, a live sales call to get them into your group of customers.
So, that can be something you can basically automate elements of your marketing so that it’s working in the background and that frees up some of your time so that’s usually the first thing that I try to get people to tackle is, if your offer is converting, let’s figure out how to automate at least some of your marketing so that it can be working for you. It’s a lot of work to put together but once you have it put together, it can be there in the background working for you and it could be something like a webinar that’s always available, it could be an e-mail sequence that people sign up for that offers your thing as part of the e-mail sequence, something that’s kind of automatic that just happens in the background so that you have time to do other things. Does that make sense?
Bryan: It does, it does, yeah, it’s a good idea. I set up an autoresponder sequence a few years ago and I found that was quite helpful for welcoming people onto my e-mail list and, you know, providing them with helpful content. So, we’re almost out of time, Pamela. Where can people find more information about you or your work?
Pamela: The best place is on my website, which you mentioned already, bigbrandsystem.com. I would go to the homepage there and you can get a good feel. I have a blog that has hundreds of articles so there’s lots to find in there as well.
Bryan: Thank you, Pamela. It was great to talk to you today.
Pamela: Thank you. It was wonderful. I really appreciate the opportunity.
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